Curse

Weezer_Blue · Aug 05, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

When I watch that video, I remember how fun the game used to be. I wish it was beta right now... even if we could only play 3 days a month.

The point is, it used to be a PvP game. Anyone would have told you that during the beta (followed by someone who would say the PvE is good too). Then, they tried to 'enhance' the PvE part. But in the process, they screwed the competitive community. Then, they seemingly forgot to add any new PvP content (oh yeah... those couple of new arenas are huge!1one), and they didn't even continue to balance out the skills. The alpha testers... the guys that are supposed to find and alert A.Net of problems, found things that should be fixed, and they weren't.

There is simply not enough PvE content in Guild Wars for it to be an RP game. The storyline sucks, the game is extremely linear, there are no good long term goals. There's nothing to keep someone playing after they beat the game once. Twice if they're bored. And three times if they're trying to unlock things for PvP.

If they had stuck with their original design, they'd have a lot more long term players, and a better game. Do you believe that the PvE only guys are really going to play this repetitive linear game for 7 months till the next expansion? After becoming that bored with it, I wouldn't even buy an expansion for a game I'll burn though in a couple days. The PvP was the endgame. In other words: What you do once you complete the insanely easy and short PvE segment. But, unfortunatly, here's a model of what the game is like now:

|-(--PvE--)-(-----------------------------Grind---------------------------)-(-PvP->

During that grind, most players just get sick of it and leave. Then, even if you make it past it with your sanity, you're not going to the Hall of Heroes by yourself, no matter how many skills and runes you have. So then you have to wait to find other people who have all their unlocks. Which is about a 1:1,000,000,000 chance.

Verdict: Grind made GW unfun.

TheGreatBoo · Aug 05, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

If you think theres any kind of grind in this game, you need to play wow, ff11, or everquest. Compared to those games, there is no grind here.

mntlchaos · Aug 05, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Hrmm.... what is this grind that you keep complaining about? for skills? psh. play through the game once. Boom. there's 2 classes of skills unlocked. Go back and do the class-specific ones for some of the other classes after ascension. There's your basic skills. From there you can spend skill points with that single pve character to unlock skills as you need them. Alternately, use faction to unlock those (or unlock items). Psh. you complain about grind here. consider most other games. You want to try a pvp build? Well first you gotta level up the pvp character. Want to try some other build? level up another character. THAT's grind. The only thing I see that would be useful was if the 1 skill per profession quests unlocked the skill for each profession rather than just your current primary/secondary.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 05, 2005, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mntlchaos

Hrmm.... what is this grind that you keep complaining about? for skills? psh. play through the game once. Boom. there's 2 classes of skills unlocked. Go back and do the class-specific ones for some of the other classes after ascension. There's your basic skills. From there you can spend skill points with that single pve character to unlock skills as you need them. Alternately, use faction to unlock those (or unlock items). Psh. you complain about grind here. consider most other games. You want to try a pvp build? Well first you gotta level up the pvp character. Want to try some other build? level up another character. THAT's grind. The only thing I see that would be useful was if the 1 skill per profession quests unlocked the skill for each profession rather than just your current primary/secondary.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guild...w_6101982.html

watch the above movie, as you can see "grind" is a term for all the stupid crap we must do before we can play what we want.

The above video is the best argument I have seen for our demands.

Aniewiel · Aug 05, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Do NOT post the video link again, please. It has been amply spamm...I mean posted in other statements.

Quintus · Aug 05, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatBoo

If you think theres any kind of grind in this game, you need to play wow, ff11, or everquest. Compared to those games, there is no grind here.

I have $100,000. Bill Gates has $40,000,000,000. Does that suddenly mean that I have no money? No, it only means that I have less money than Bill Gates, but I still have money.

Just because those other games have more grind does NOT mean that Guild Wars has no grind.

The point of this post is to show you that this arguement is illogical and has no place in a rational discussion. I hope that you refrain form using non sequitur arguements such as this one in the future, because it really doesn't add to the debate at all.

goku19123 · Aug 05, 2005, 03:54 AM // 03:54

There is "grind" in this game, since grind is a subjective notion, if someone feels as though there is "grind" then for that person there IS grind.

SOT · Aug 05, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aracos79

I simply am trying to share a concept which I believe goes a long way to explaining the roots of the problem that the entire Guild Wars community now faces.

This is off the main topic, and I have not a care:

I am really getting tired of listening to other gamers speaking for ME. I have had just about enough of that shit. Really.

PVP-oriented gamers are the same thing as PVE-oriented gamers, they simply fight a different foe, one is programmed, one is sadistic and brilliant. That is where this whole entire miasma of better than you and worse than this ends. PERIOD.

You are speaking for YOU, and anyone you say agree's with you is still speaking for THEM, not for me, and anyone else.

So stop trying to feed everyone who reads this the same thing I see on countless posts "YOU are not the community, and I am not YOU"

Aracos79 · Aug 05, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

With all due respect sir, I never claimed to be speaking for anybody but myself. The idea presented is my own. Everyone who posts is free to agree or disagree with it as they so choose. What I am trying to do is get the community to work together by putting ideas and concepts on the table for everybody to discuss. At no point do I claim to be an advocate or spokesman for anyone. If you don't feel that the thesis I have presented is worthy of consideration, then that is your opinion which you are wholly entitled to. But that is no reason to not allow the discussion to go forward.

Aniewiel · Aug 05, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

I just believe strongly that this is the crux of the problem we all are discussing and I would like to bring it to the community's attention.

SOT: This is a quote directly from Aracos79's original post. I think it quite clearly illustrates that he was stating HIS opinion and wanted to share it with the community.

You were off on this one. Believe me, I doubt anyone could so eloquently speak for you as well as you do for yourself....and probably wouldn't want to either.

Now, everyone, back to topic please. Thanks!

Lord Malikai · Aug 05, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I loved the PvE. I like to PvP, mostly GvG. But after going through the game, I knew the story line and wished to PvP. I am a Guildleader of a guild that has enough members to GvG, though not all of them can be the class combo required for certain builds. This makes it so I needed to unlock basically everything in the game so I could accomodate the missing link in whatever build we were using for that particular GvG. So, I went through the game 2 more times. Now, you may say there is no grind, that compared to other games (which I have played) that the grind is minimal, in this you are wrong.

My first character, I spend 350 hours beating the game, doing every quest for skills on top of spending countless hours doing FoW runs to unlock all the skills for W/E.

My second character, a R/Me had a tougher time collecting skills after beating the game and collecting all the skills through quests and available skill points. With 30+ skills to get still, he needed to grind in UW for hours and hours. I'm still working on him (12 more skills to go) and have logged 300 hours on him now.

My third character, a N/Mo had a easy time of it. 100 hours, beat the game and smited his way through most of his skills needed. Wow, beaing a monk was really easy. He still needs a couple skills but I have the main skills I wanted and solo/smiting has just gotten so boring I feel like puking when I do it.

So in total, about 700 hours played and I have almost all of the skills for all classes unlocked. I've also spend a good many hours GvG'ing and unlocking mods for weapons. This to me is the most absurd thing I am doing at the time because with 700 hours in PvE, I still have not unlocked anywhere near all the max mods and runes I would need for competitive PvP. Sure, I don't "need" them but after that much time spent exploring the world you would have thought I would definately have them all right ? Hell no, Now on top of grinding for all the skill points, I have to grind it out in PvP for unlocks.

Well, I've burned myself out near completion of my "grinding to get everything quest" and have nearly nothing left in me to continue playing besides GvG with my guildmates on the weekends.

BigTru · Aug 05, 2005, 06:28 AM // 06:28

"We don't want the quests to be boring. How many fed-ex quests can you go on before you get bored?"

"You won't see the same creatures in one area as another. All of them will be distinct and we won't just use color swaps"

L . . . M . . . A . . . O

(para-phrased from the video)

Yep... definitaly hypocritical.

Rieselle · Aug 05, 2005, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Malikai

So in total, about 700 hours played and I have almost all of the skills for all classes unlocked. I've also spend a good many hours GvG'ing and unlocking mods for weapons. This to me is the most absurd thing I am doing at the time because with 700 hours in PvE, I still have not unlocked anywhere near all the max mods and runes I would need for competitive PvP. Sure, I don't "need" them but after that much time spent exploring the world you would have thought I would definately have them all right ? Hell no, Now on top of grinding for all the skill points, I have to grind it out in PvP for unlocks.

Well, I've burned myself out near completion of my "grinding to get everything quest" and have nearly nothing left in me to continue playing besides GvG with my guildmates on the weekends.

I feel a little bit like this type of thinking is sadly "reversed"... and it's probably the games fault for making people this way. You shouldn't NEED everything unlocked just to "enjoy pvp", anymore than you NEED to be lvl 60 with the best gear in WoW to "enjoy pvp"... I have many friends who are having the time of their lives in the lvl30 battlegrounds, so much so that they are refusing to level up. (although it might have something to do with them pwning all the lvl25'ers in there :P )

So what do we need? Some way of playing against people closer to your "level" perhaps... now actual "level" in this game means very little, but it seems like the primary cause of envy and power is the number of unlocks you have. Maybe some tiers based on what percentage of unlocks the team has?

I know from personal experience, trying to encourage a friend of mine who's only played through half the game, to roll up a pvp character, join me in the team arenas, where we would grab 2 PUG people and play - we all got instantly minced multiple times, and it wasnt exactly the most fun introduction for him. We need better venues for beginners to play... that restricts the amount of power you can bring in. (and preferably not a random arena, so we can help train friends and guildies.) Maybe a template-only team arena? Maybe Yaks Bend pvp restricts you to only the stuff you can acquire prior to yaks bend?

I guess the upcoming intra-guild pvp would help things.

Also, you said "after all that exploring the world I should have got them all, right?!?!" ... that's a bit of an extreme assumption... I personally would have "expected" to unlock everything by the time the next lot of stuff came out ... ie. a couple of months before next year's expansion. But that's me.

TheGreatBoo · Aug 05, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

I have $100,000. Bill Gates has $40,000,000,000. Does that suddenly mean that I have no money? No, it only means that I have less money than Bill Gates, but I still have money.

Just because those other games have more grind does NOT mean that Guild Wars has no grind.

The point of this post is to show you that this arguement is illogical and has no place in a rational discussion. I hope that you refrain form using non sequitur arguements such as this one in the future, because it really doesn't add to the debate at all.

If you want to try and use my words against me, read it right. Key word there COMPARED. I didn't say there was no grind. Read it in its entirity. If you want my argument, read up instead of forming ignorant opinions.

Rieselle · Aug 05, 2005, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintus

I have $100,000. Bill Gates has $40,000,000,000. Does that suddenly mean that I have no money? No, it only means that I have less money than Bill Gates, but I still have money.

Just because those other games have more grind does NOT mean that Guild Wars has no grind.

The point of this post is to show you that this arguement is illogical and has no place in a rational discussion. I hope that you refrain form using non sequitur arguements such as this one in the future, because it really doesn't add to the debate at all.

This is a pointless, straw-man argument sort of thing. We all know the REAL debate is whether there is TOO MUCH "grind", or not. Arguing about the existence of grind reduces the discussion into merely a debate about the semantics of the word "Grind".

Louis Ste Colombe · Aug 05, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Malikai

I loved the PvE. I like to PvP, mostly GvG. But after going through the game, I knew the story line and wished to PvP. I am a Guildleader of a guild that has enough members to GvG, though not all of them can be the class combo required for certain builds. This makes it so I needed to unlock basically everything in the game so I could accomodate the missing link in whatever build we were using for that particular GvG. So, I went through the game 2 more times. Now, you may say there is no grind, that compared to other games (which I have played) that the grind is minimal, in this you are wrong.

My first character, I spend 350 hours beating the game, doing every quest for skills on top of spending countless hours doing FoW runs to unlock all the skills for W/E.

My second character, a R/Me had a tougher time collecting skills after beating the game and collecting all the skills through quests and available skill points. With 30+ skills to get still, he needed to grind in UW for hours and hours. I'm still working on him (12 more skills to go) and have logged 300 hours on him now.

My third character, a N/Mo had a easy time of it. 100 hours, beat the game and smited his way through most of his skills needed. Wow, beaing a monk was really easy. He still needs a couple skills but I have the main skills I wanted and solo/smiting has just gotten so boring I feel like puking when I do it.

So in total, about 700 hours played and I have almost all of the skills for all classes unlocked. I've also spend a good many hours GvG'ing and unlocking mods for weapons. This to me is the most absurd thing I am doing at the time because with 700 hours in PvE, I still have not unlocked anywhere near all the max mods and runes I would need for competitive PvP. Sure, I don't "need" them but after that much time spent exploring the world you would have thought I would definately have them all right ? Hell no, Now on top of grinding for all the skill points, I have to grind it out in PvP for unlocks.

Well, I've burned myself out near completion of my "grinding to get everything quest" and have nearly nothing left in me to continue playing besides GvG with my guildmates on the weekends.

300 hours + to beat the game with one character? And a second one?

I mean no offense, but you must have been an awful lot of stuff not directly character improvement related to stack up that many hours without getting skills naturally... If you really want to go throught the game fast, and get an awful lot of skills/ skill point, you'd do it in... 20 hours? even with no guild help...
My level 20 characters always seem to have excess skill points! I got a hard time getting less than 20 at any given time! I capture Elite I don't need or don't even feel like playing anytime soon just for collection purpose!

There are only 2 things which are difficult to unlock:
- superior runes; the randomness of it in PvE makes it very tough to unlock a specific superior rune. Good news, PvP faction help you unlock the exact rune you want. For minor/ major runes, casual loot with no farming somehow gave me pretty much everything, I have not spent anywhere near 300 hours on one character, and noone gave me any armour.
- items improvement:it's very tough and time consuming to unlock a specific item in PvE. Again, faction is the answer.

I do agree those two categories are very long and tough to unlock in PvE, but now they are much faster to unlock in PvP, and I would not say that you can't have fun in PvP without all sup runes and all weapon mods.

Louis,

Lord Malikai · Aug 05, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

I feel a little bit like this type of thinking is sadly "reversed"... and it's probably the games fault for making people this way. You shouldn't NEED everything unlocked just to "enjoy pvp", anymore than you NEED to be lvl 60 with the best gear in WoW to "enjoy pvp"...

Also, you said "after all that exploring the world I should have got them all, right?!?!" ... that's a bit of an extreme assumption... I personally would have "expected" to unlock everything by the time the next lot of stuff came out ... ie. a couple of months before next year's expansion. But that's me.

700 hours. Played through the game completely 3 times. Every mission, every quest, every bonus, hours and hours of FoW and UW. Hell, I'm a guildleader, I've redone missions and quests countless times. I've gotten thousands of faction for unlocks.

I have not gotten them all. Therefore, I must redo content which I have already completed many times before simply to aquire things.

That my friend, is grind.

Doing all of this, I looked at my characters and thought, "After completing the game with my character, doing all the missions legit as well as the bonus', I am dumbfounded why I now need to go grind out xp for another 30 levels to aquire skill points". Skill points ? Don't you mean levels ? 20,000 xp X 30 needed skills to max out a character = 600,000 xp!!

That is a grind.

EDIT : That's 600,000 xp on top of being level 20 already.

EDIT x2 : To answer the question of not NEEDING everything to compete and have fun. What fun is it to have less choice of skills or -60 health than your opponent ? What fun is it for an entire PvP only guild to have to go up against a build they have no counter for using premades ? No, having flare and a wooden stick may be fun for some people, but I don't like bringing such tools to a fight where my opponent can rain meteors from the sky and shoot lightning bolts out his arse.

Rieselle · Aug 05, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Malikai

700 hours. Played through the game completely 3 times. Every mission, every quest, every bonus, hours and hours of FoW and UW. Hell, I'm a guildleader, I've redone missions and quests countless times. I've gotten thousands of faction for unlocks.

I have not gotten them all. Therefore, I must redo content which I have already completed many times before simply to aquire things.

That my friend, is grind.

Doing all of this, I looked at my characters and thought, "After completing the game with my character, doing all the missions legit as well as the bonus', I am dumbfounded why I now need to go grind out xp for another 30 levels to aquire skill points". Skill points ? Don't you mean levels ? 20,000 xp X 30 needed skills to max out a character = 600,000 xp!!

That is a grind.

EDIT : That's 600,000 xp on top of being level 20 already.

EDIT x2 : To answer the question of not NEEDING everything to compete and have fun. What fun is it to have less choice of skills or -60 health than your opponent ? What fun is it for an entire PvP only guild to have to go up against a build they have no counter for using premades ? No, having flare and a wooden stick may be fun for some people, but I don't like bringing such tools to a fight where my opponent can rain meteors from the sky and shoot lightning bolts out his arse.

Seems like you've done a lot of things not directly related to getting skills in your 600hours. Then again, it's a valid point that you should be doing whatever you want to do, and getting unlocks for it - you shouldn't need to be playing in a special way to get skills.

Having said that tho, if you DO play specifically to get skills, you can get them all a fair bit quicker. After all, you gain the first 12 levels of a character incredibly quickly - then, a short run to droknars by a guildie and you can buy all the skills you want.

Finally, regarding the "all skills unlocked"... think about it. A person (such as a beginner, or even me) might not WANT to play in a UAS environment, where his naive early attempts at just bringing his normal PVE build and playing with PUGs doing the same, gets them instantly wiped by specialised teams. There's something to be said for playing in a limited environment, everyone making do with what they have, and overcoming the imperfections in their skillsets by how they play together. That's why currently Random Arena is the most fun for me. (because I'm ok personally but suck in "optimising" team builds.)

Of course, it becomes a problem when they come up against people with a large amount of unlocks ... so my point is, it's not the lack of UAS that's the problem, its the fact that people with fewer unlocks face up with people with much more unlocks.

In fact - there's an argument for skill points being limited, and skills being randomly available - kind of like a trading card game system. Then you wouldnt see "flavour of the month" or fashionable builds being repeated ad-nauseum anymore - people would have to take what they have and make the best of it, and guilds can acquire some individuality based on what sorts of skills they have available to them.

It might not stop some lucky team from getting the skills required for a spirit spam build pwning everyone else, but it WILL stop every man and his dog from running the same spirit spam build. (the first is a balance issue that needs to be solved regardless anyway.)

It depends on what you're looking for in a game. Some people like rigid strategy and winning - I prefer variability, variety, and requiring luck and the ability to adapt. That's what's more fun for me, above winning or losing.

Divinitys Creature · Aug 05, 2005, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I'm tempted to say "Refer to TGH forums for an exhaustive list of references evidence and discussion" there has been so much there with plenty of redundancy. I've been through the archives there on so many occasions and it's a lot to go through. So I'll just submit one picture that we have on the Karma forum. It's not the best piece of evidence, but I have to do some work soon

www.guildkarma.com
NOW RECRUITING
PvP rewards wrong (need increase) by a factor of 16+ or 8+ since patch
WTB: 450 SKILL POINTS/ 9 MILLION EXP AND A WAY TO GET 1 MILLION GP | OR 630,000 FACTION

Shadow_Avenger · Aug 05, 2005, 11:34 AM // 11:34

It boils down to personal preception, Having a insta PvP chr, with a template which will contain a variety of skills including elites to start with as soon as you have installed the game basically answers to there claim of instant action and skill is basically in using the templates to there best advantage, I am certain a good group of friends who actually communicate with each other could use just the templates and do really well in the PvP game. I am not saying they will be the number 1 guild instantly, lets face it you are never the number one player unless you play a game for hours and hours this goes for all games, PC and real life sports.

A.net have lived up to the PR, but like I said it is individual as to how far you want to take it. Too behonest I think its time some of the people around here laid off the caffine and sat back. It is a game, and the vast majority actually enjoy it for what it is just that a game.
There are over 400,000 subscribers and 1000 listed on the ranks and some of them have only pvp'd 10 times, if each guild has 20 members this only accounts for half of the subscribers in total, PvP is part of a fun game and not the route of all evil as some of the hardcore seem to post about.